Talk:England
Adoption date FOTW saying that the "first recorded use of it was in 1545" doesn't prove it. I think 16th century is slightly better. --Bethel23 (talk) 14:56, 10 March 2009 (UTC) ::By the way, does the image of the Union flag come up for you or not? It doesn't for me! --Bethel23 (talk) 14:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC) :::Yes, it displays for my browser/computer. 14:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC) I've found many websites that say it was 1277. However, I'm not sure about this. 14:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC) ::Well, 1277 is wrong (sorry!). According to FOTW: The earliest reference to the cross of St George as an English emblem (not flag) was in a roll of account relating to the Welsh War of 1277. Although the banner of St George was flown when the castle of Caerlaverock was taken in 1300, it was in company with those of St Edward and St Edmund. Edward the Confessor was "patron saint" of England until 1348 when the greater importance of St George was promoted by the establishment of the Chapel of St George at Windsor. It was not until 1415 that the festival of St George was raised to the position of a "double major feast" and ordered to be observed throughout the Province of the Archbishop of Canterbury with as much solemnity as Christmas Day. St George's cross did not achieve any sort of status as the national flag until the 16th century, when all other saints' banners were abandoned during the Reformation. The earliest record of St George's flag at sea, as an English flag in conjunction with royal banners but no other saintly flags, was 1545. ::I think that 1277 is a date for sort of it being a national symbol, but not the national symbol, and certainly not the national flag. --Bethel23 (talk) 15:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC) :::Well, FOTW does not say that it was adopted in the 16th century; that is an assumption. Also, FOTW is not the only website with English flag info. By the way, if we use only FOTW, then the Austrian date must be changed because Denmark was the earliest adopted flag according to FOTW's "Flag superlatives". Here are some quotes that are about 1277 (I think an exact year is better than a 100-year range): * "Although it was not until 1277 that the flag was officially declared the national flag of England, they adopted the cross at the same time as they adopted St. George himself; a fourth century Christian martyr, to be Patron saint of England." - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/language_tips/britishcouncil/2008-10/28/content_7109593.htm * "The St George's Cross, a red cross on a white background, is the national flag of England and was adopted for the uniform of English soldiers during the military expeditions by European powers to recapture the Holy Land from Muslims (Crusades of the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries), and on or about 1277 it officially became the national flag of England." - http://www.celticstoreusa.com/Flags_page.htm * "The Cross of St. George Flag was in use during the Crusades. It became one of the national emblems of England as early as 1277." - http://www.usflagdepot.com/store/page18.html * "From about 1277 it became the national flag of England." - http://www.itisuk.com/Nationalsymbols-insignia-anthems-in-england.html * "Dating back to the Crusades, this flag symbolized England at least as far back as 1277. - http://www.usflags.com/productDetail.asp?ItemID=1060 * "England's St. George's Cross Flag, c. 1277-1707" - http://gasos.org/archives/museum/html/flag_1277-1707.htm ...and more. 17:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC) ::::Well, that looks relatively convicing, so I'll change it! --Bethel23 (talk) 19:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Designers Its those frustrating designers again! Right, here we go. I have now read through through numerous articles on the flag of England, and not one of them has even mentioned designers. All I have come up with is that it was associated with the Crusaders, and then became associated with England. Now, I really, really, really, really don't think I'm going to find a designer, as I think if there ever was one that it has been lost in the mists of time. So, can we put "Unknown", and remove the stub? Please? --Bethel23 (talk) 16:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC) :Well, according to the article it was designed by a pope :-) But I must agree, sometimes it's theoretically impossible to tell who the author of the flag is -- it can be too old, or be born in chaos of civil war, or its design can be too obvious to have one particular author. Absence of author should not be considered a flaw. "Designed by" should be an optional argument of the flag template. — Hellerick 20:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC) ::Unless there is a reference that says that the designer is unknown, then "Unknown" can be put into the "designers=" section of the FlagBox. See Texas and Cornwall. 15:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC) ::No references seem to say the designers are unknown; they just presume that you realise that! Do you think we could put "Unknown" without a ref? --Bethel23 (talk) 15:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC) :::That would be giving up, wouldn't it? ;-) 18:14, 17 March 2009 (UTC)